Bryan Østergaard ([info]kloeri) wrote,
@ 2008-05-19 16:50:00
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Current mood: excited

Announcing Exherbo!
Open source is said to be about scratching your particular itches - and I've
been working my butt off for the last several months along with a small,
select team of developers doing just that.

All our hard work have so far resulted in a very experimental linux
distribution
that's definitely not ready for users yet (or even developers)
but does have quite a few interesting ideas and features.

In particular we've been working on and continue to focus on:

Packaging format:

  • our current package format is somewhat similar in idea to Gentoos ebuilds  but is completely incompatible due to the many technical differences.
  • our naming of variables, phases and libraries describes the concepts much better compared to Gentoo.
  • we have several new phases allowing much better control of the build process.
  • our options handling is much improved compared to the USE flags of Gentoo.
  • the default functions provided for various phases removes the need for explicit phase functions from most packages.
  • we're not afraid of huge changes to the package format.

Toolchain:
  • Most distributions sucks badly in the way they handle crosscompiling, multilib and other fun stuff
  • work is ongoing on this topic and there'll probably be huge changes but we have a fairly decent idea how to handle all the multi stuff sanely.
Initsystem:
  • We're writing a completely new initsystem free of all the weird, useless legacy stuff and based on user needs in the 21st century.
  • I'll be talking about this at the FOSS Aalborg conference in Aalborg, Denmark on june 4th. Slides will be made available after the conference.

Management and politics:
  • we take a no bullshit approach to our work and aren't afraid to tell each other when something sucks and take it at face value.
  • we keep the developer team small on purpose - there's much less bullshit this way and we can all agree on the direction needed for  Exherbo.
Further plans:
We have lots of additional features and ideas for the future planned that we
haven't even started on yet so Exherbo is expected to be in turmoil for quite
a while yet. That said I think we have an interesting base already and
interested people are encouraged to take a look at it. Just don't expect
anything to work (seriously!). Ongoing development is pretty fast and we're
still at a stage where we happily break everything without second thoughts to
installed Exherbo systems or users.

More info:
More info is available on http://www.exherbo.org. More specific questions can
be asked in #exherbo on the freenode irc network (point your irc client at
chat.freenode.net) or by /msg'ing me directly (I'm using the nick 'kloeri') or
emailing me at kloeri@exherbo.org. Please keep in mind that I'm usually fairly
busy and might take a little while before I'm able to answer your questions.


(Post a new comment)


[info]leinir
2008-05-19 03:49 pm UTC (link)
About the new init system, have you spoken with bero from the Ark Linux team about the one he's working on? From what you're saying, it sounds a bit like what he's working on :)

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]kloeri
2008-05-19 04:13 pm UTC (link)
I think I've looked at most currently available initsystems but I wasn't aware of bero from Ark Linux working on a new initsystem. I think I'll need to get in contact with him soon :)

Thanks for the tip.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]leinir, 2008-05-19 04:17 pm UTC

(Anonymous)
2008-05-19 05:19 pm UTC (link)
Because, yeah, what the world needs is another linux distro. Get over your NIHS (Not Invented Here Syndrome) and go improve an existing distro.

(Reply to this)(Thread)


(Anonymous)
2008-05-19 05:55 pm UTC (link)
We tried, gentoo didn't want any help from us. Rather than wasting more time on gentoo we did something else. Deal with it.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]kloeri
2008-05-19 06:36 pm UTC (link)
It's my experience that we've gotten much further in the 6+ months we've been working on Exherbo that I ever got close to in my 4 years as a Gentoo developer. And most of the changes we want to do compared to other distributions would be rather disruptive to an already established userbase so I find it rather attractive (and a big time saver) to start from scratch.

If my goals was much closer to one of the existing distributions I would probably agree with you however. As is I wouldn't expect any distribution to accept the work we're currently doing as the changes and potential for breakage is simply too big.

One of our biggest advantages (seen from the developers point of view) is that we have no users and I'd rather keep it that way for a while longer. I do however think the work we're doing is sufficiently mature and interesting for other developers to peek at - not install Exherbo but merely looking at our ideas and concepts and see if they want to grab some of them.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]nategoose, 2008-05-19 07:57 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kloeri, 2008-05-19 10:41 pm UTC
OK, I Want to Try Exherbo
(Anonymous)
2008-05-19 08:49 pm UTC (link)
Actually, I don't want to try Exherbo until it's done. But why bother making an announcement when you discourage everyone from even taking a peek?

(Reply to this)(Thread)

Re: OK, I Want to Try Exherbo
[info]kloeri
2008-05-19 10:08 pm UTC (link)
(Reusing a comment I made on lwn.net)

We announced it so that other interested developers could take a peek at some of our ideas and hopefully benefit from them. I've talked to several gentoo developers that thinks several of our ideas are quite interesting already.

I plan to blog about several of the things that seperate Exherbo from Gentoo and other
distributions in the coming months and believe that will prove quite interesting to a number of developers.

The (extremely) experimental nature of Exherbo atm means it's definitely not interesting or suited for users but open source isn't just about users and sharing ideas and concepts is very important. Even if the code isn't anywhere near a state where users can start testing it.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

Look at conary
(Anonymous)
2008-05-19 09:20 pm UTC (link)
http://wiki.rpath.com/wiki/Conary

Conary is a package management system done right. The concept of "trigger scripts" is so obvious when you understand it, but still this is lacking from all other package managers. Take a look at a typical build script (called recipe in conary) and compare it to any other build system. The build recipes are short and sweet.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

Re: Look at conary
[info]kloeri
2008-05-19 10:14 pm UTC (link)
I've looked at tons of different packaging systems including Conary. I also attended a talk about Conary at FOSDEM '08. But while I agree that Conary is great in some ways it also have some very basic problems compared to our goals.

Ebuilds (as used by Gentoo) is much closer to our ideas of a "perfect" package format so that's what our exheres-0 packages most closely resemble. That said we've extended and changed the format quite a bit to provide a fair bit of features we missed in ebuilds and fix lots of other problems as well.

I'm sure the exheres format will continue to evolve over the years to come but we already have a fairly solid ground for the things we want our package management system to support.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

Good for you!
[info]spyderous
2008-05-19 09:24 pm UTC (link)
Best of luck, folks, and have a lot of fun with it! Since it's in the early days, I highly recommend you set up a scheme where you have a single person in charge while you still can. Having a more corporate-like (or kernel-like?) structure will make things a lot easier down the road.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

Re: Good for you!
[info]kloeri
2008-05-19 10:14 pm UTC (link)
He's called Bryan aka kloeri :P

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: Good for you! - [info]spyderous, 2008-05-19 10:16 pm UTC

[info]djcapelis
2008-05-19 09:47 pm UTC (link)
I will be watching this project closely. Thanks for letting the world know, do drop a note again when you guys want to relax the development schedule enough to start having a user or two.

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]kloeri
2008-05-19 10:18 pm UTC (link)
Watch my blog (or better yet planet exherbo). I'll be posting about many of the exciting things that we've already done as well as new and upcoming stuff. When we're ready to let users test Exherbo you'll definitely hear about it here first :)

(Reply to this)(Parent)


(Anonymous)
2008-05-19 09:51 pm UTC (link)
Sounds like everything I've always wanted an a distro - gentoo without the bullshit and endless finessing on a user-level.
-Keiron

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]kloeri
2008-05-19 10:24 pm UTC (link)
We're definitely not there yet but we have a fairly clear idea about the direction we're going in. And while I don't plan on competing with Gentoo directly (our goals differs quite a bit anyway and we don't have nearly the amount of developers Gentoo does) I strongly believe that we'll be able to provide a distribution that's in many ways more flexible, easier to manage and in some ways more stable (talking about the distribution, not the packages themselves) compared to Gentoo.

Having the biggest package tree is not a goal however so for those people where number of packages is a key feature I suspect Exherbo won't be their cup of tea at all. We make it very easy to install packages manually using the package manager though by importing them through the paludis 'importare' utility (that's what the developers do for many packages currently). This allows us to cleanly uninstall and upgrade/downgrade those packages as needed without ever having an exheres package for it.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

Pretty trollish question
[info]rcl
2008-05-20 12:50 am UTC (link)
If you are starting from scratch, why don't you create a FreeBSD-based system? I think it's more fun than making just another Linux distro.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

good news!
(Anonymous)
2008-05-20 01:12 am UTC (link)
I applaud your efforts. I've been waiting for exactly this to happen. Hears to picking up enough steam to cross the finish line!

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: good news! - [info]kloeri, 2008-05-20 04:44 pm UTC
Re: Pretty trollish question - (Anonymous), 2008-05-20 03:50 am UTC
Re: Pretty trollish question - [info]kloeri, 2008-05-20 04:39 pm UTC
Re: Pretty trollish question - [info]reddragdiva, 2008-05-20 06:31 pm UTC
I'll be watching.
[info]n6nz
2008-05-20 01:22 am UTC (link)
What I've been wishing for is Gentoo with user-oriented developers and good QA. Hopefully that is what you mean by "Gentoo without the politics". In reality, you will have your own politics -- that's life. As long as users come first, then great.

Any source distribution is going to be a QA nightmare. I also accept that as a given -- but I think its possible to do better than Gentoo.

The idea of a small development team worries me -- tell me again how you get scalability? The chief problem with Linux distributions today is that developers get all hot to fine tune under the hood (new init system? new package system?) but in reality, most users need a *stable* core OS with reasonably fresh libraries and the availability of application packages near the leading edge. Most Linux distros have that backwards -- the app packages are stale, and I see lack of sufficient developers as a cause of that. Especially if every app needs to be packaged up in yet another format without any kind of automatic package conversion or "foreign package" installation process. Oh... and I should be able to easily build and install my favorite tools from the developers' CVS and git repos without h0rking over the package management system.

So... new init system? I'm an old time unix user.... first logged into a Unix system on a PDP-11/75 in the late 1970's. Just don't move stuff around, mmmkay? I hate walking up to a Unix system and not being able to find anything, and being forced to use some half-baked, buggy GUI tool that gets it wrong and then makes you fix it by hand, and has odd-ball config files in odd-ball places. This is one thing that Gentoo has absolutely right -- /etc and rc-update work right IMHO.

So... best of luck, I'll be watching, "Gentoo, but better" is what I'm waiting for... let's hope your idea of "better" is similar to mine :)

(Reply to this)(Thread)

Re: I'll be watching. - [info]kloeri, 2008-05-20 04:57 pm UTC
New init
(Anonymous)
2008-05-20 02:44 am UTC (link)
Please take a look at upstart before designing a new init. If enough distributions adopt it, it will replace the venerable SystemV init.

What will your new init replacement do that init can't do _already_ ?
http://upstart.ubuntu.com/

It fits the needs of Ubuntu and Fedora.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

Re: New init - [info]ciaranm.wordpress.com, 2008-05-20 03:28 am UTC
Re: New init - (Anonymous), 2008-05-20 04:04 am UTC
Good Luck
(Anonymous)
2008-05-20 08:15 am UTC (link)
I just want to say Good Luck!

If you ever get something half-finished for power-users/semi-developers to test, I'll be all over it! See you then.

(Reply to this)

A clue for a developer
[info]douglas_goodall
2008-05-20 08:27 am UTC (link)
I have downloaded (svn) some shiny stuff. If it's not about a right of passage, you can leave some clues about getting started. Some of it looks very familiar, but a quick faq with a few steps to get started. A few simple answers like,Is this stuff meant to build on top of gentoo for now? I don't expect it to be that far along, but is it far enough along to do "Hello World!'? I have no expectations other than you want to do something fresh that feels elegant. Good luck with that, and I hope to be able to feel that way about your stuff down the road too.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

Re: A clue for a developer - [info]kloeri, 2008-05-20 06:51 pm UTC
Re: A clue for a developer - [info]douglas_goodall, 2008-05-20 10:12 pm UTC
Re: A clue for a developer - [info]kloeri, 2008-05-20 11:24 pm UTC
Re: A clue for a developer - (Anonymous), 2008-05-22 05:36 pm UTC
Re: A clue for a developer - (Anonymous), 2008-05-22 06:49 pm UTC
Re: A clue for a developer - (Anonymous), 2008-05-23 06:30 pm UTC
Re: A clue for a developer - [info]kloeri, 2008-05-23 06:48 pm UTC
Good luck
(Anonymous)
2008-05-20 08:33 am UTC (link)
Good luck with it, Kloeri.

Best regards,
Stu

(Reply to this)(Thread)

Re: Good luck - [info]kloeri, 2008-05-20 06:51 pm UTC

[info]hexe_n_bdot
2008-05-20 08:52 am UTC (link)
/me in hope that some features would be ported to portage. :)

Would migration from gentoo (somewhen) be possible without total reinstalling?

(Reply to this)(Thread)

Existing Init systems - (Anonymous), 2008-05-20 02:05 pm UTC
Re: Existing Init systems - [info]kloeri, 2008-05-20 06:57 pm UTC
Re: Existing Init systems - [info]hexe_n_bdot, 2008-05-23 10:14 am UTC
Re: Existing Init systems - [info]kloeri, 2008-05-23 10:21 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kloeri, 2008-05-20 06:54 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2008-05-22 05:38 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kloeri, 2008-05-22 07:04 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]hexe_n_bdot, 2008-05-23 10:15 am UTC
Wish list!
(Anonymous)
2008-05-23 10:43 pm UTC (link)
I'm a novice Gentoo user with limited skills but would your distro support precompiled binaries? I'd love to be able to install a working system with binaries quickly and then re-compile the packages I want to optimize at leisure. I find myself installing Ubuntu frequently just because it's quick and regretting it later!

(Reply to this)(Thread)

Re: Wish list! - [info]kloeri, 2008-05-24 08:15 am UTC
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2008-06-08 12:41 am UTC (link)
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