kloeri: Credit where credit is due

	Re: Not the first time (Anonymous) 2008-08-21 06:39 am UTC (link)
	OMG ! you coudln't post to diego's blog, but what about posting to gentoo-dev ml where discussion took place _before_ the post ? (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Not the first time
(Anonymous)
2008-08-21 07:04 am UTC (link)

OMG ! you coudln't post to diego's blog, but what about posting to gentoo-dev ml where discussion took place _before_ the post ?

Did you read what I said at all? Can you even read? I quite clearly stated that I had been replying directly to a previous comment on Diego's blog, therefore the most appropriate and relevant place to answer is also on Diego's blog. And besides, that's not the point. The point is that he was rejecting information that he doesn't like, namely the fact that --as-needed can indeed break valid code.

--dleverton

	(Anonymous) 2008-08-20 12:34 am UTC (link)
	omg, these gentoo devs suck. http://davzero.wordpress.com/2008/08/20/feeling-bad/ (Reply to this)

	difficult personalities.. are difficult to work with (Anonymous) 2008-08-20 01:18 am UTC (link)
	I have trouble taking any advice from ciaranm,spb and the like.. Maybe if they knew how to act like decent human beings instead of always trying to prove how smart they are, people might actually want to listen to them. Such folks .. while technically correct.. end up bringing down projects due to their poisonous personalities (Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: difficult personalities.. are difficult to work with
(Anonymous)
2008-08-20 05:56 am UTC (link)

I have trouble taking any advice from ciaranm,spb and the like.. Maybe if they knew how to act like decent human beings instead of always trying to prove how smart they are, people might actually want to listen to them. Such folks .. while technically correct.. end up bringing down projects due to their poisonous personalities

So in other words, you have exactly the same attitude as Diego does and that kloeri was lamenting in the first place... nice. I think it is you who has the "poisonous personality".

--dleverton

	Re: difficult personalities.. are difficult to work with (Anonymous) 2008-08-20 08:55 am UTC (link)
	This post is nonesens and dleverton don't make it fool yourselve. Some things, like --as-needed problems were known before ciaranm wrote about them so if we should (Reply to this) (Parent)

Who was the first? Should we spent our time on finding that?
(Anonymous)
2008-08-20 09:09 am UTC (link)

Some things, like problems with --as-needed were known long before ciaranm or Diego wrote about them. So credits should definitly go to the first mentions of this idea. Ciaran didn't do that, Diego is not historian either. So why should they bother and spend their time?

Diego wrote a good resume of what he read in the web: many links, lot's of mails/people/opinions. Should he gather all that links and publish them together with the blog-post? No, because time spent on such work will eat all time and makes impossible to write blog. Just because you know somebody else already wrote similar ideas, does not mean it's required to cite them. Or is Ciaran special and although other people are not mentioned in blog, Diego should cite them every time Ciaran told something similar?

Please, stop echoing nonsense kloeri wrote here, dleverton.

Re: Who was the first? Should we spent our time on finding that?

kloeri
2008-08-20 09:20 am UTC (link)

We should spend a reasonable amount of time looking for prior work. But more importantly, when directly pointed to prior work in a helpful and non-trolling/flaming way we should take a look at it and see if it can't help make our own work better.

Hiding it just because a specific person was involved only hurts users by giving them an inferior product and adds to all the fighting/political nonsense that open source is already suffering from.

Re: Who was the first? Should we spent our time on finding that?
(Anonymous)
2008-08-20 04:02 pm UTC (link)

Some things, like problems with --as-needed were known long before ciaranm or Diego wrote about them. So credits should definitly go to the first mentions of this idea. Ciaran didn't do that, Diego is not historian either. So why should they bother and spend their time?

Didn't you read my message at all? It was quite clearly about me trying to answer someone's question, and Diego hiding the answer because it goes against his political/religious/whatever beliefs. It was absolutely not about "giving credit", and no sentient life-form could possibly read it and come to that conclusion.

--dleverton

Re: difficult personalities.. are difficult to work with
(Anonymous)
2008-08-20 06:29 am UTC (link)

Oh, and another thing... ciaranm is not in any way involved with the event described in the blog post (and only loosely with the one in my first comment), and spb is only indirectly involved, yet you come here and attack them without commenting on the post in any way? Your obsessive hatred for them is such that it drives you to lie and FUD about them on random blog posts? How pathetic.

--dleverton

Re: difficult personalities.. are difficult to work with
(Anonymous)
2008-08-20 09:00 am UTC (link)

"I have trouble taking any advice from ciaranm,spb and the like.. Maybe if they knew how to act like decent human beings instead of always trying to prove how smart they are, people might actually want to listen to them. Such folks .. while technically correct.. end up bringing down projects due to their poisonous personalities"

It's one thing to disagree, ignore or dislike people. You can always feel free to do that.
But it's not ok, to rip off their stuff, remove their credit and claim that you invented it yourself.
That's doesn't only show bad personality, but it's also a highly doubtable practice from a legal point of view.

Disliking people does not allow you to rip off their work.

BTW: What's more poisonous?
People behaving badly once in a while or people mentioning that people are poisonous every 10s?

Regards,
Berniyh

Re: difficult personalities.. are difficult to work with

regala.openid.org
2008-08-20 09:36 am UTC (link)

What troubles me here, is how I failed to see any misbehaviour in Flameeyes' post: he explains something on his blog, something he thinks people should care about. I don't see how you people can just say he's a moron because it didn't say somebody else on the Web already talked about it. Flaming for the sake of flaming. It is the whole community that is sick of itself; just look at yourself, and please stop taking stands in suck useless personal distress between the Gentoo people and the Exherbo staff. They don't want to work with each other. But posting such useless and clueless stuff, is what drives me crazy. Don't you have anything else to comment ? anything else to do than staring at Diego's blog for him to post a "copyright-lacking entry" because he breaths like every Exherbo developer ? omg, everybody's sick.

Re: difficult personalities.. are difficult to work with

kloeri
2008-08-20 09:49 am UTC (link)

You are misunderstanding my blog post completely.

The problem isn't that he wrote something about ABI dependencies - in fact I explicitly stated in my post that I agree ABI dependencies are very important. And Gentoo certainly needs work in that area so it's good that Diego brings it up.

What is a problem however is that he hides (or censors for that matter) helpful pointers to prior work and by doing so makes it harder for Gentoo to get a good framework and implementation of ABI dependencies.

And please note that I'm not even saying anything about Exherbo's ideas being right or wrong - that's for Gentoo to decide but ignoring this prior work puts Gentoo at an disadvantage as it:
1. Makes sure it'll take longer to reach the goal as Gentoo can't benefit from any existing insights.
2. Quite likely will result in an worse implementation as important details might be missed that Exherbo didn't miss. (This goes both ways and I'd be quite interested to see what Gentoo comes up with if anything).

This really boils down to exactly the same reasons you shouldn't implement a sort algorithm without ever looking at existing sort algorithms.

Re: difficult personalities.. are difficult to work with

regala.openid.org
2008-08-20 10:09 am UTC (link)

I apologized. I already saw, and my comment is way to "light" to be serious... I kinda get very annoyed with this inner war with Paludis/Gentoo/Exherbo, which seems to bring us the most ugly behaviours on any side. I just think that Diego's post is not just what people see in it. It is just childish and I bet Diego did not even read it, given the author (sad ? dunno. his choice ? yes...)

I agree on the consequences, though. this kinda things will just simply not stop.

regala.openid.org
2008-08-20 09:57 am UTC (link)

I see now how Diego misbehaved in your opinion. Again this is kinda personal fight and I guess Diego simply rejects any Paludis/Exherbo dev comments. This behaviour can be commented, not agreed with, rejected, abhorred. This is personal.
But surely, this is not the kinda "I hide what the others do to take benefits from them." It is just kinda "no, I don't like you here, you know that already. Shut up". Very surely, this kinda can backfire to Gentoo, but let's just not spread the "copyright-infringement policy fight" between people who know very well what such copyright FUD could bring to all of us.
Yes, this is childish between long-term beloved/hated communities. And we can comment on that, but let's stop putting such nonsense copyrighty war zone on them.

kloeri
2008-08-20 10:09 am UTC (link)

Again, you misunderstand.

I'm not saying that he stole any ideas from Exherbo. He might very well not have looked at the Exherbo stuff at all before writing his blog post for all I know.

What I *am* saying however is that he should try to benefit from prior work instead of trying to hide other peoples work when they try to help him. Not doing so out of spite or hatred for other people is only going to hurt Gentoo users and I'm sure nobody actually thinks that's a good idea.

And you know what? He doesn't even have to talk to those people to benefit from their work as it's all documented and he was pointed directly towards the documentation.

Lalala, i can't hear you!
(Anonymous)
2008-08-20 11:28 am UTC (link)

Clear pathetic case of..

Lalala, i can't hear you!

So, you have something against certain people. It's quite obvious that you should
* Totally ignore what they are saying, even though it's good.
* Never give any credit to them, even though that means you're beeing a big-mouth.
* Act like a little child, ruining the way the opensource effort came to live.

Friggin grow up, kids. I don't have any children myself, but it seems that the older you get, the closer you get to act a child.

You didn't do the work on it, so be it, give the irritating people some credit after all. You wanna see Gentoo flourish again, it's not beeing done by covering up other distro's and other people's efforts. Kicking a dev out cause of his actions? "Oh oh, we don't like you, go play with other kids!"? Come on.

Everyone of you, sit back, and start thinking about yourself, how you're acting, and what it's bringing you. It's not the first time that Diego does whatever the fuck he wants. On the other hand, he's been doing some very very good work. So, let him be, or have the foundation or something point fingers, and stop crying about "Mammaaa Gentoo sucks, what do i do!?!!shifteleven".

(Reply to this)

(Anonymous)
2008-08-21 02:00 am UTC (link)

You make a fair argument but your choice of words threw me (and others?) off.
With a title of "Credit where credit is due" I immediately expected a story where someone took or built upon the work of another and did not provide credit, or maybe even claimed it his own. Took me a minute or two before I figured out that isn't the case you're making here.

It's not a crime for someone to ignore the work of others, although it is questionable in open source communities. Diego's comment 'policy' is also questionable, and those are all fair points, but at a glance your post seems quite aggressive and I don't think you meant it that way.

kloeri
2008-08-21 08:44 am UTC (link)

I don't see how my blog post is aggressive in any way. You might be right about the title not being optimal but for people actually reading the post I think it should be pretty clear that I'm just pointing out that Diegos behaviour hinders cooperation and that it would be in the best interest of everbody if friendly help and advice wasn't dismissed just because of the sender.

Wow.
(Anonymous)
2008-08-21 03:17 am UTC (link)

"I hope Diego is going to be a lot more cooperative in the future and actually follow the open source spirit instead of trying to mimic behaviour that's primarily seen from closed source companies."

Right, and from your own homepage:

"It's not that we hate you (unless we do). It's just that we have nothing to offer you, and you have nothing to offer us."

Go read Exherbo's homepage and tell us with a straight face what a shining example of Open Source Exherbo is, Bryan.

Re: Wow.

kloeri
2008-08-21 08:48 am UTC (link)

That's easy to do.

The website is trying to tell people that we already know what are goals are and that we're not at a stage where we want to discuss those. But we're actually rather good at accepting contributions and help as long as they fit our goals.

There's quite a few commits in our repositories that comes from people testing Exherbo for one reason or another and they've found us very receptive so far.

(Anonymous)
2008-08-26 07:51 am UTC (link)

Lol!

These Exherbo people have some nerve whining over credit not be given and at the same time not mentioning Gentoo a single time on the front page of their web site, but only a "well known source based distribution". Although they are probably right about Diego's mistake, they sound and act just like a bunch of spoiled brats who should have been sent to bed a long time ago. Grow up.

kloeri
2008-08-26 09:05 am UTC (link)

You realised that used to mention Gentoo several times on our frontpage and that a Gentoo developer more or less requested that we removed those references, right?

I think mentioning Gentoo is the right thing to do (as we did initially) but only if Gentoo developers agree with it. When it turned out that Gentoo developers apparently didn't agree with it I changed all the direct references to Gentoo. It really doesn't get any more fair than that imo.

(Anonymous)
2008-08-27 01:29 pm UTC (link)

Good point.

However from what I read on /. there used to be the following paragraph on Exherbo's front page:

"And no, we don't want to use Exherbo to implement your pet project. Especially not if it's a stupid pet project. Go and inflict it upon Gentoo, they think that porting ebuilds to run on SunOS 2 ksh under Cygwin is a great idea."

If that is an example of the way Exherbo used to refer to Gentoo, I cannot blame the developer for requesting said references to be removed.

Roughly speaking, it always follows the same scheme:
1. Make provocative statements (*), preferably in public (e.g. the front page of a web site),
2. Wait for someone to give in to that provocation and make a mistake and/or do something stupid,
3. Loudly whine over it and play the victim (**).

(*) Claims of superior technical proficiency are a common way to convey provocation (e.g. "Some idiots who don't know what they're talking about still do that and that." or "- But C++ is... - No it isn't. Whoever told you that was either trolling or ignorant."),
(**) This is where (*) comes in handy, e.g. "People keep attacking me because I make valid points and they don't want to admit their lack of knowledge".

That's called trolling, it is childish and it harms everybody. I am sorry for you Bryan, because you seem to be a nice guy, but you are working with people whose attitude is harmful to your project. Just read Exherbo's homepage and dleverton's posts above, as they illustrate step 1.

	kloeri 2008-08-27 01:58 pm UTC (link)
	That was removed fairly quickly and by the time we were asked to remove the references there hadn't been any negative references for months. The page was exactly the same as now except mentioning Gentoo directly instead of things like "a widely used source based distribution" and things like that. (Reply to this) (Parent)

(Anonymous)
2008-08-27 06:23 pm UTC (link)

Just read Exherbo's homepage and dleverton's posts above, as they illustrate step 1.

My posts here are all 100% true. If you find the truth offensive or "provocative", then that's entirely your problem.

--dleverton